Author Topic: Religion  (Read 7712 times)

Offline Jet Flash

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Re: Religion
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 05:23:36 am »
I posed that question to everybody I knew at church, "How can God expect someone to convert when it would involve changing there whole life and go against everything they've been taught to believe. Can't he understand that it's impossible?"



Here is another case on top of the others i've posted, this time, a Guantanamo Bay prison guard.
Gitmo Prison Guard Converts From Atheism To Islam After Seeing Detainees 'Wake Each Day And Smile'



Do you still think He has made it impossible for you to turn back to Him?

You know, one thing we as Muslims say when we hear of a death is, "To Allah we belong, and to Allah we will return" (this is actually a verse of the Quran btw). So if your ultimate end is to Him, then why would you not change your life for Him? At the end of the day, pleasing Him is the only thing that matters and the only thing that will count, not pleasing others which something you will never be able to do.


Then another question hit me. What if, say, you're a native american. And you're alive in 10000B.C. You've never even heard of the bible, you don't know what the hell God or Yahwey or the Torah or any of that is. Are you going to go to heaven? Well according to the bible, you are not.


I'm no expert on Bible, but i'm sure there are other Prophets in there? There are 25 mentioned in the Quran so i'm pretty sure they are in the Bible also? Even Muhammed (peace be upon him) as i recall there was a verse somewhere speaking about his arrival.

Adam -Adam
 Idris - Enoch
Nuh - Noah
 Hud- Eber
 Saleh -Shelah
 Ibrahim-Abraham
 Lut -Lot
 Ismail - Ishmael
 Is'haq -Isaac
 Yaqub-Jacob
 Yusuf -Joseph
 Ayub - Job
 Shoaib- Jethro
 Musa - Moses
 Harun -Aaron
 Dhul-Kifl -Ezekiel
 Daud -David
 Sulayman -Solomon
 Ilyas -Elijah
 Al-Yasa -Elisha
 Yunus -Jonah
 Zakariya-Zacharias
 Yahya-John
 Isa-Jesus
 Muhammad-Mohammed

And these are only the Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them) that were mentioned in the Quran, there were actually more than that, many more. I recall a figure of over 100,000 , but i don't remember clearly. Of course, it wouldn't be fair if God judged these Native American people without sending His Message to them, but that's not the case.

Each person should follow the Prophet/Messenger that came to them, so if John came and you followed him, that would be acceptable and in Islam that person would be considered a Muslim. If however, you were alive when Jesus came, but you rejected him, then that would not be acceptable. All these Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them) came with one Message, to Submit to Allah (or God in english, as you can see i use the words quite inter-changeable), so rejecting one Prophet/Messenger is like rejecting them all.

With the statement of Jesus (peace be upon him) and other Christians saying that "the only way is through him", if that's what he said we don't really have a problem with that. At the time, Jesus may have been the only Prophet/Messenger, so yes, the only way to Allah would have been through him. But now that another Messenger has come (Muhammed, peace be upon him), it is not the way anymore.


I believe this quote by Marcus Aurulies sums up my feelings about religion, all religions, pretty well:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.


It has been some years now before I came across this quote, but seeing it again now I see how very little sense it actually makes.


@kami Thank you for correcting me, it is important that we get these things right. If not, it leads to all sorts of conjecture which the majority of men follow.


Offline Anndgrim

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Re: Religion
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 12:59:22 pm »

The gun analogy would require that there is an infinity of hierarchy levels.

And that THING that was not created would by all logic be an humanoid magical wizzard... sure...

Or you could just admit that it is WAY ABOVE YOU, and that YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

I used this example to show why i don't think it makes sense for the universe to have created itself. Is it Newtons law which says "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." ? So yes, this example would suggest that there is an infinite hierarchy of levels, if no Creator existed. Or are you saying Newtons law is wrong?

(Maybe i'm quoting the wrong law here, i don't know. Like i said, i am not smart, so maybe i'm talking about something else. For you to come to such an arrogant conclusion, you must have heard of it before yes? Causation i think it may be.)

If God is Just and he is going to judge us on our deeds and decide whether we go to Paradise or Hell, then it is only fair that he tells us what is good and what is bad, and what will land us in Paradise and what will land us in Hell. If He came as Himself or sent Angels to us to spread His Message, then there would be no test, as surely everyone would believe. That's why it makes sense that He sent Humans to be Prophets and Messengers to spread His Message, to make it a fair test.

This is what i meant by logical and rational progression.



And that would be what? The Sharia?

Simply put, yes. But I don't see how you could even begin to even comprehend or appreciate the Laws of Allah if you don't even believe in His existence. When you build a house, you don't start from the roof, you start from the foundations.


Trying to apply a law that effers to the conservation of matter and energy to the birth of an Universe is a far fetch.

As far as that goes, NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, knows.


In the theory where our universe exists inside something.
As far as I'm concerned I think that it is pretty reasonable to assume that the rules of physics of our universe don't apply to what our universe exists in.

And again as I said before, the Big Bang is not the creation of the Universe, but simply a violent change in what already existed.

A scientific theory is that the universe will end by collapsing into the same kind of state it was before the Big Bang in the phenomenon called Big Crunch, which opens the theory that our universe goes through an endless cycle of Big Bang-> Big Crunch.

Which then open the possibility that our universe was not created but might have just NEVER NOT BEEN.


That's where, however, your reasoning just eats itself. You arguement that the Universe must have been created based on the idea that something cannot come from nothing, but your answer to that is that something that came from nothing created it.





Past that, still, jumping from the conclusion of your reasoning to a specific religion is purely baseless.


And as for the Sharia in itself, like all laws of all other religions before and after, it wasn't written by "God", but by people, with their own agendas and own convictions in mind and we all know that people can bend religion very far, and insert their own opinons, interests and issues in them.

A quite obvious example is the Republican Party and its instrumentalisation of religion as their values couldn't be more different from those preached by Jesus and the New Testament.

A textbook example is the Malleus Maleficarum. Book written as a guide to the Inquisition of witches. The author was so obsessed with his own issues (namely impotency) that large part of the book is him ranting about "impotency curses" and sadistic fantasies of the cruelest retribution to pass on the "witches" accused of using them. Thus displaying an attitude similar to that of a vexxed child.



As for the validity of any holy scriptures. Let's just remember how they are known to be completely on (for most) absolutely any proveable fact.


As for the Sharia in itself, neverminding the fact that it has been edited many times by pretty much anyone with enough authority, just no.

Not even minding the enormous inequalities it has and completely dispproportionate punishments for crimes or even things that just merely disagree with the lifestyle of biggots, it  consistantly goes against the mere concept of Justice.
Doing that by integrating parts that are obviously not just punishment but plain sadistic Revenge, or even laws that only exist to put some population groups in small boxes and promising them dreadful punishment if they dare step out of them and try to live like those more favoured by those laws (Rich Male Adult Muslim).




But honestly, to come back to my previous point, to come from "I believe there is a God because I can't imagine the world could be the way it is if there wasn't one", and to go to "Every other religion is just made up bullshit written by misguided men, but mine is without a question true and was written by people God talked too", is just ridiculous.

And though I feel I need to admit it might offend and that it is not the intention, I must say, I find it laughable.


And if someone tells me "I know it's true because I can feel it inside me", I'll just say the guys from all the other religions feel exactly the same and its called Conditionning, and it doesn't only works for religion but for anything.
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Offline CDeLorme

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Re: Religion
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 01:56:59 pm »
Baptized as a child, family rarely (if ever) went to church, but we got our fill of it from family members and at one point summer-school.

I am agnostic as well, I don't follow any religions but I recognize them as structures that help maintain order in our societies (usually).  If anyone has ever heard of Patton Oswald look up his "Sky Cake" skit.  For some people, their belief is what holds them together, so for that reason I am indifferent to others beliefs.  However, I feel ones beliefs are personal, and when someone starts marketing their religion at me I find it irritating.

To draw conclusions as to the origins of the universe is the same as claiming you understand and comprehend the laws of the universe.  When we draw theories with our truly limited understanding of the universe or claim such understanding I get a good chuckle out of it.  When scientists and researchers change their conclusions regularly on topics that have been studied for years and only related to our planet, how can we possibly claim to know the makings of the universe.

I think arguing with the devout about their religion is a lost cause, which makes this debate a funny choice.

Offline Jet Flash

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Re: Religion
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2013, 08:25:12 pm »
Trying to apply a law that effers to the conservation of matter and energy to the birth of an Universe is a far fetch.
Is it really? Is it not a law which governs the universe?

In the theory where our universe exists inside something.
As far as I'm concerned I think that it is pretty reasonable to assume that the rules of physics of our universe don't apply to what our universe exists in.
Sorry but, that sounds like baseless conjecture to me. Maybe try approaching it more scientifically with evidence.

And again as I said before, the Big Bang is not the creation of the Universe, but simply a violent change in what already existed.

A scientific theory is that the universe will end by collapsing into the same kind of state it was before the Big Bang in the phenomenon called Big Crunch, which opens the theory that our universe goes through an endless cycle of Big Bang-> Big Crunch.

Which then open the possibility that our universe was not created but might have just NEVER NOT BEEN.
Cyclic theory, yes, which like I said I don’t believe because it doesn’t make sense to me.

That's where, however, your reasoning just eats itself. You arguement that the Universe must have been created based on the idea that something cannot come from nothing, but your answer to that is that something that came from nothing created it.

I think you misunderstood my post, and you may have missed Kami’s post, but here is the chapter that he was referring to:
“Say: He is Allah the One and Only;  Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;  He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;  And there is none like unto Him.” – [112:1-4]

When I said “Ever-Living”, I meant something that was always there, not something that was created.


Past that, still, jumping from the conclusion of your reasoning to a specific religion is purely baseless.

The Message of God has always been one Message, and has been the same throughout all of time, which is to Submit to Him and Him alone. It wouldn’t make sense for it to change halfway through. So basically, there could only really be one “religion” (I’d rather say way of life), but what has happened, over time there has been deviations. And because of this, more Prophets were needed to be sent.

Eg. When Jesus (peace be upon him) was around, there were no deviations because he was still there. But when he ascended (not sure if that’s the right word to use or not), that paved the way for people to alter the Bible, and that’s exactly what happened. Is it Paul and Aquinas among the people who changed and re-wrote the Bible? This is why another Prophet needed to be sent, and as Muslims we believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is that final Prophet.

Even Jesus himself (peace be upon him), he was sent because there were deviations with the Torah. If I recall correctly, it was in the Babylonian times that some Rabbis got together and changed the Torah so that the rules would benefit the king, i.e. they changed the Torah so that they would gain favour with the King at that time.

That is what Islam teaches about the Message and the Prophets anyway, and it’s what makes sense to me so I believe it. I don’t know too much about other religions, but multiple gods don’t make sense to me. But if you want to go ahead and explain why they make sense, feel free.

And as for the Sharia in itself, like all laws of all other religions before and after, it wasn't written by "God", but by people,

The Laws of Allah are based off the Quran and the Sunnah, so you’re either saying that they have been altered, or you’re saying this because you don’t believe in the existence of God. Which like I said before, you wouldn’t be able understand or comprehend the Laws of Allah if you don’t even believe in Him.

If you think they have been altered, then like I also said before the Quran has not been changed ever since it was revealed. If you think the Sunnah has been altered, then I suggest you go read up on the science of hadith.

As for the Sharia in itself, neverminding the fact that it has been edited many times by pretty much anyone with enough authority, just no.

If the Quran and Sunnah hasn’t been changed, I don’t see where you’re getting this from.


"Every other religion is just made up bullshit written by misguided men, but mine is without a question true and was written by people God talked too”

I hope I’ve explained this clearly enough.

You know, you’re coming up with these wild conclusions and such, but have you even opened the book that we’re talking about? Are you even making these conclusions based off what you have read from the source itself?

When you want your hair cut, you go to a Barber not a Gardner. When you want meat, you go to a Butcher not a Civil Engineer. If you want to make conclusions about Islam, then please base it from a real source.

To draw conclusions as to the origins of the universe is the same as claiming you understand and comprehend the laws of the universe.  When we draw theories with our truly limited understanding of the universe or claim such understanding I get a good chuckle out of it.  When scientists and researchers change their conclusions regularly on topics that have been studied for years and only related to our planet, how can we possibly claim to know the makings of the universe.

Cause and Effect has never been challenged has it? Or are you saying that it doesn’t make sense? Has Cause and Effect and energy conservation ever been proved wrong?

If you’re walking through the park on a sunny day, and you see a football fall from the sky, would you say, “My knowledge is too limited to say that someone kicked the ball” ?

I think arguing with the devout about their religion is a lost cause, which makes this debate a funny choice.

I don’t know about you or anyone else in this thread, but I posted to explain my beliefs and why it made sense, not to shove it down your throat or to “win” an argument. I think it is those who come into debates like this that are the true losers.





« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 08:45:52 pm by Jet Flash »

Offline ketaro

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Re: Religion
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2013, 03:45:39 am »
I don’t know about you or anyone else in this thread, but I posted to explain my beliefs and why it made sense, not to shove it down your throat or to “win” an argument. I think it is those who come into debates like this that are the true losers.

Sorry I don't have anything worth really contributing here, but then what hasn't already been said? I'm hardly one that pays enough attention to religion to honestly discuss it in a serious manner from a knowledgeable stance. I guess I hold a similar stance to what CD mentioned for himself if anything.

But yeah, actually been reading this thread (despite kinda avoiding this thread in general) and your posts really come off as quite informative. At least, enough so compared to all of Grim's posts which have majorly been coming off as being "No because no".  :-\ Sorry for interrupting.

Offline Anndgrim

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Re: Religion
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2013, 05:32:12 pm »
Trying to apply a law that effers to the conservation of matter and energy to the birth of an Universe is a far fetch.
Is it really? Is it not a law which governs the universe?

It is. Many scientists think the laws of physics may have been extremely different during the big bang. It's even suggested they might change throughout the universe. But that's not the issue.

Would the laws that govern the Universe govern events that precede that said Universe?

That's a good question.

In the theory where our universe exists inside something.
As far as I'm concerned I think that it is pretty reasonable to assume that the rules of physics of our universe don't apply to what our universe exists in.
Sorry but, that sounds like baseless conjecture to me. Maybe try approaching it more scientifically with evidence.

It is.
And again as I said before, the Big Bang is not the creation of the Universe, but simply a violent change in what already existed.

A scientific theory is that the universe will end by collapsing into the same kind of state it was before the Big Bang in the phenomenon called Big Crunch, which opens the theory that our universe goes through an endless cycle of Big Bang-> Big Crunch.

Which then open the possibility that our universe was not created but might have just NEVER NOT BEEN.
Cyclic theory, yes, which like I said I don’t believe because it doesn’t make sense to me.
Unfortunately, Science isn't about how you feel.
That's where, however, your reasoning just eats itself. You arguement that the Universe must have been created based on the idea that something cannot come from nothing, but your answer to that is that something that came from nothing created it.

I think you misunderstood my post, and you may have missed Kami’s post, but here is the chapter that he was referring to:
“Say: He is Allah the One and Only;  Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;  He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;  And there is none like unto Him.” – [112:1-4]

When I said “Ever-Living”, I meant something that was always there, not something that was created.

And back to my point -> For some reason the Universe can't be ever existing but "God" can.
Past that, still, jumping from the conclusion of your reasoning to a specific religion is purely baseless.

The Message of God has always been one Message, and has been the same throughout all of time, which is to Submit to Him and Him alone. It wouldn’t make sense for it to change halfway through. So basically, there could only really be one “religion” (I’d rather say way of life), but what has happened, over time there has been deviations. And because of this, more Prophets were needed to be sent.

Eg. When Jesus (peace be upon him) was around, there were no deviations because he was still there. But when he ascended (not sure if that’s the right word to use or not), that paved the way for people to alter the Bible, and that’s exactly what happened. Is it Paul and Aquinas among the people who changed and re-wrote the Bible? This is why another Prophet needed to be sent, and as Muslims we believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is that final Prophet.

Even Jesus himself (peace be upon him), he was sent because there were deviations with the Torah. If I recall correctly, it was in the Babylonian times that some Rabbis got together and changed the Torah so that the rules would benefit the king, i.e. they changed the Torah so that they would gain favour with the King at that time.

That is what Islam teaches about the Message and the Prophets anyway, and it’s what makes sense to me so I believe it. I don’t know too much about other religions, but multiple gods don’t make sense to me. But if you want to go ahead and explain why they make sense, feel free.

Again I'm not trying to prove there is no God, because I know that I DON'T know.

But you're jumping from the Belief that something created the Universe to the conclusion that "His name is Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.".

From what I get it's simply the expression of what you feel, "makes sense to you".
I'm not gonna try and argue against that, but if I may ask you, have you researched all other religions before coming to that conclusion.

And also, how do you come to the conclusion that those holy scriptures are right despite the fact that they contain numerous proven errors.
And as for the Sharia in itself, like all laws of all other religions before and after, it wasn't written by "God", but by people,

The Laws of Allah are based off the Quran and the Sunnah, so you’re either saying that they have been altered, or you’re saying this because you don’t believe in the existence of God. Which like I said before, you wouldn’t be able understand or comprehend the Laws of Allah if you don’t even believe in Him.

If you think they have been altered, then like I also said before the Quran has not been changed ever since it was revealed. If you think the Sunnah has been altered, then I suggest you go read up on the science of hadith.

As for the Sharia in itself, neverminding the fact that it has been edited many times by pretty much anyone with enough authority, just no.

If the Quran and Sunnah hasn’t been changed, I don’t see where you’re getting this from.

According to Historians they have been edited, and the laws concerning society have changed throughout time.

Now if you base your knowledge of the history of Islam only on the base of what those who preach it say, you'll have the more "convenient" version of the story.
"Every other religion is just made up bullshit written by misguided men, but mine is without a question true and was written by people God talked too”

I hope I’ve explained this clearly enough.

You know, you’re coming up with these wild conclusions and such, but have you even opened the book that we’re talking about? Are you even making these conclusions based off what you have read from the source itself?

When you want your hair cut, you go to a Barber not a Gardner. When you want meat, you go to a Butcher not a Civil Engineer. If you want to make conclusions about Islam, then please base it from a real source.

Did you read the Holy Scriptures of all the other religions before you rejected them?

Do I need to read the Quran to suppose it's the fruit of someone's imagination?

Is it the part where the Hero goes riding out into the sunset on his flying horse that is supposed to convince me?

Or maybe the part where peope who don't know what a meteorite is, find a rock that "isn't of the same colour as the other rocks in the area" conclude that it's a piece of Heaven?

I must admit I don't know the Quran that well but I've had the same kind of discussion with a lot of Christians and to be honest, I quite often knew more about their own religion than they did. Partly because most of them never actually read the Bible. They just look at the cover and say "Yeah I agree with that.".
To draw conclusions as to the origins of the universe is the same as claiming you understand and comprehend the laws of the universe.  When we draw theories with our truly limited understanding of the universe or claim such understanding I get a good chuckle out of it.  When scientists and researchers change their conclusions regularly on topics that have been studied for years and only related to our planet, how can we possibly claim to know the makings of the universe.

Cause and Effect has never been challenged has it? Or are you saying that it doesn’t make sense? Has Cause and Effect and energy conservation ever been proved wrong?

If you’re walking through the park on a sunny day, and you see a football fall from the sky, would you say, “My knowledge is too limited to say that someone kicked the ball” ?

That's the same kind of logic as the one that led the Greeks to explain lightning by "Zeus the God of Heavens uses Javelins as magical javelins or that the sounds the sands make when it ges windy in the desert is "the voice of spirits".

The thing is, you're either right or wrong, giving an arbitrary, baseless explanation, doesn't make you "right until proven wrong".

If you lack the knowledge that would allow you to know, the you simply don't know.


Quote from: ketaro
Sorry I don't have anything worth really contributing here, but then what hasn't already been said? I'm hardly one that pays enough attention to religion to honestly discuss it in a serious manner from a knowledgeable stance. I guess I hold a similar stance to what CD mentioned for himself if anything.

But yeah, actually been reading this thread (despite kinda avoiding this thread in general) and your posts really come off as quite informative. At least, enough so compared to all of Grim's posts which have majorly been coming off as being "No because no".   Sorry for interrupting.

:\

Oh, did I do that in the part where I explained I was agnostic, or in the part where I tried to prove that there was only doubt.

You either haven't read my posts are haven't understood them.

Well that or you are just looking at it with your usual prejudice towards me and actually believe it, or you are simply being dishonest, as per usual, may I say.
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Offline Silént Assằssin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 01:21:40 pm »

"According to Historians they have been edited, and the laws concerning society have changed throughout time."

I've not heard of this o.O Is their proof that the Qu'ran has been edited? or the Sunnah?
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Offline 68neko

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Re: Religion
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2013, 02:47:58 am »
I haven't perceived Anndgrim's posts as saying "No because no." I thought he was trying to base his arguments on science and logic, but he is in a debate with others who are basing their arguments on faith and belief. So good luck with that. He does seem to be fairly well informed, at least about the Bible. Have you read Bart Ehrman and others like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins?

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Offline Anndgrim

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Re: Religion
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2013, 04:05:06 am »

"According to Historians they have been edited, and the laws concerning society have changed throughout time."

I've not heard of this o.O Is their proof that the Qu'ran has been edited? or the Sunnah?

I'm talking about the laws themselves, that received a number of additions and interpretation, and no those laws aren't just the Quran and Sunnah.
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Offline Silént Assằssin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2013, 08:36:46 am »
Well, not like I follow the Sharia law word for word, i think it's probably with the number of additions that make certain laws too strict, but I do not believe either the  Sunnah or the Qu'ran were altered. and that is all I will post here, you either believe in a religion or you don't, ain't nobody got time to argue why either one is correct or incorrect.
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Offline thas

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Re: Religion
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2013, 08:15:14 pm »
I tried to read as many blocks of texts in this thread as I could. I'll probably get to the rest later, but here's my view. I'm an atheist cause to me there is enough evidence to realistically eliminate the possibility of there being a God. Before I go on, I'd like to point out that I'm not necessarily against the idea practicing a religion. I can see that it serves a purpose for many individuals, even though it has its flaw aside from what the general atheist would point out.

I come from an extremely religious family. My relatives are superstitious to the extent where receiving something with your left hand is not allowed as it is a sign of disrespect that is punishable by God. I always remember getting a slap on my left wrist from my parents as they told me the Gods would be angered. For anyone wondering, this is just an extreme branch of Hinduism. I hated the idea of restricting myself with such rules. I wondered why the gods would want us to worship them. Was it for their self satisfaction or proof that we were able to "control" ourselves. I then wondered, what if I lead a good & honest life without worshiping them? Would I still be punished? I asked this to a Hindu priest & he said yes. His explanation was that I was being ungrateful, but why should the gods care as long as I live my life as a good person? Aren't they some pure beings that do not reflect such human greed? I got to the point where even if a God existent, I had no intention of worshiping or praying.

As I grew older, I began to question how the universe was created. I believe in evolution, but even that doesn't necessarily explain the creation of the universe. The most common answers I'd get were either the Big Bang theory or God. I talk to religious people often & they suggest, as one would expect, that God created the universe. I then ask them how God came to be or rather how was he created. The answer I continuously got was that he always existed, but this was an answer I refused to accept. As a intelligent species with thinking minds, we try so hard to explain how everything was created, but then we stop once we get to God?! I'd sooner believe that matter always existed for there to be the Big Bang.

This became a lot longer than I expected. I'll stop here for now.

Offline CDeLorme

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Re: Religion
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2013, 09:05:36 pm »

Cause and Effect has never been challenged has it? Or are you saying that it doesn’t make sense? Has Cause and Effect and energy conservation ever been proved wrong?

If you’re walking through the park on a sunny day, and you see a football fall from the sky, would you say, “My knowledge is too limited to say that someone kicked the ball” ?

I could make that assumption yes, but it is just as likely that someone threw it.  However, is it also possible that someone built a better mousetrap?

A pedestrian on a nearby highway could have had a ball in a bag, was hit by a bus, which sent the ball out in front of a car, which "punted" the ball my direction.

To assume the cause based on the effect hardly follows the scientific method, and it would be logically equivalent to say that "someday someone will present sound evidence that energy conservation is a fallacy."

While lacking the basic knowledge to draw such a conclusion is bad, it is equally possible that I am assuming I have all the required knowledge when I make this claim, which effectively makes it no different than a supposition.

This is why Science bounces back and forth on topics over the decades, and is why I am not an atheist.


I don’t know about you or anyone else in this thread, but I posted to explain my beliefs and why it made sense, not to shove it down your throat or to “win” an argument. I think it is those who come into debates like this that are the true losers.

Exactly, it would hardly make sense to call it faith if it could be changed according to someones arguments.

However, last I checked that is exactly what a debate is, hence why I made the comment.  I don't expect any amount of logic or reasoning presented that conflicts with the beliefs of a devout mind will cause them change their faith.  Sort of renders a debate on the topic pointless, never the less an interesting read.

Offline Unlikely Story

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Re: Religion
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2013, 06:08:12 am »
Used to be Muslim, no longer am thanks to George Carlin, Christoper Hitchens, Dan Dennet, Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins.

I don't care what you as an adult believe so long as you don't care what I believe or don't believe.
I find it disgusting when children are raised forced to believe whatever their parents believe, absolutely disgusting. You're limiting a childs ability to grow and think by more than you think, and it's socially accepted across the board.
Imagine raising a child as a hardcore neonazi, communist, or some other ideology that leaves jimmies permanently rustled.
But I guess in the end it's easier to breed new members than to recruit them.


Offline Oagadi

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Re: Religion
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2013, 09:28:29 am »
Hi everyone,
 
Interesting topic you have here, don't mind if I join in?
 
First I would like to clarify something: There seems to be this general consensus that atheism is the denial of god's existence or saying that there is no possible way for a god to exist. This is false information unfortunatly mass distributed by the media which to this day, certainly in religious countries like the USA, tends to favor a religious point of view. Atheism comes from the Greek word atheos which translates to "without gods". Simply put: atheism is the notion of not believing in/ not worshipping a god. Even if a god were to exist you could still be an atheist by simply ignoring them. In theoretical atheism however, you do actively counter-argue against theism.
 
TL;DR: (Practical) Atheism is not denying (the possibility of) the existence of a god, it is simply not believing in/ worshipping a god.
 
Then another thing I would like to clear up:

I believe in evolution, but even that doesn't necessarily explain the creation of the universe. 

Evolution is a fact: there is so much overwhelming evidence to support it that not "believing" it would be either ignorant, or simply a result of not being able to comprehend it. Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge); I am not trying to offend anyone here.
 
*phew* Feel much better now. :D I hope I have been able to inform anyone. 
Btw about me: Was raised catholic, sort of. I have been baptized, but I've never been force-fed religion and as you may have noticed I am in fact an atheist.

Offline thas

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Re: Religion
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2013, 03:00:54 pm »
Oagadi, what you said with regards to evolution is very true. I've taken courses on it and there's simply no denying the evidence. It is indeed a fact. The point I am making is that evolution is an explanation as to how species came to be as they are, but it doesn't necessarily explain what happened far before the formation of the protocell.

 

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