Author Topic: Religion  (Read 8166 times)

Offline Lucifer

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Religion
« on: April 06, 2013, 03:25:10 am »
A bit sleepless so here I am creating a topic of probably the very most volatile nature on Earth :D.

To start off, are you religious? How did you come to be if so? Why do you remain? Do you believe in God with religion, or without? Do you hate religion? Are you indifferent? Etc.

Just a few examples to start off on, of course feel free to wall of text to your hearts content, I'll probably read them, at least.

My own "beliefs":
I was raised a Christian, church and all that, until I was around 11 and simply through contemplation I broke free from religion. I do not mean to sound offensive however I see religion as shackles. Over the next decade my thoughts on the subject have continually evolved and refined. I once felt I was special in the sense of a purpose related to Christianity. I can only look back on these thoughts as silly delusion, I could go into more detail but I can't help but find it silly. I do not hate that I was once devout, as it of course provided additional understanding to my continually evolving thoughts. For a while I was merely ok with religion, but no longer followed it. I also somewhat followed "God" during this small period of time as well. However I then moved onto the mindset of not believing in a God, but not saying it doesn't exist either. During these times I still didn't have much against religion outside of its perpetration of ignorance.

In recent years however I have become more.. for lack of a better explanation, gained a sense of superiority. In all honesty it is an inescapable feeling, our own consciousness is but a tip of the iceberg that is our unrelenting subconscious. However I want to make it clear I do not see others inferior, so much as I pity them. I have come to despise religion through my countless time spent in contemplation on such subjects (for me, such contemplation is unavoidable, while I engage it sometimes more often then not it follows its own ignition). While religion can bring good to the world, it is mostly a delusion onset unto its followers. We are also all very well aware the atrocities those commit in the name of religion, however this doesn't particularly make a good argument as these same tools would just use something else as an excuse instead of religion.

In the end, my thoughts come to a focal point. I consider religion self-enslavement. I consider the worship of any God, self-enslavement. It has come to the point I consider it completely ridiculous. If there was a God and we could all see and understand it (to a degree), I would still not worship it. This is where the pity I mentioned comes from. I see faith as enslaving of ones self. To be honest, I'd have more then a few choice words for some pathetic God if there is one. While I doubt there is a God at all, its silly to say there simply isn't, despite all we know, we barely know anything.

I'll be able to probably explain more properly if others engage :P.

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Offline TommyHales

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Re: Religion
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 11:33:59 am »
hey, i was never religious by the time i was 13 i was a atheist but over the years through things that have happened in life and other things i became agnostic i believe that there is a higher power at work(not necessarily a god), a good example of what i believe is in the movie knowing with Nicolas Cage at the beginning where he talks about the sun and how its at the right temperature, right size and right distance from the earth for life to evolve, also there's a quote from Stephan hawking that states if the big bang created the universe, what created the big bang.

and if you dont know what being agnostic means here is a quote from wiki
Quote
Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. More specifically, agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.

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Offline Jet Flash

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Re: Religion
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2013, 07:22:22 pm »
Hamza Tzortzis, youtube him.

I don't feel enslaved at all, i actually feel more free than i ever have been after i started practicing Islam. Anyway, i'm not so smart and philosophical so i couldn't really debate with you, but i know enough to see that its the truth. Logically and rationally progressing through the creation of the universe only leads to the belief that God exists. There are enough signs for His existence, for those who ponder anyway.

Hamza Tzortzis is probably a good a good starting point for you i guess. Also try reading the Quran. If you have thoughts of religion that keep coming back to you, then i think you will like reading it.

Offline Anndgrim

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Re: Religion
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2013, 07:29:50 pm »
hey, i was never religious by the time i was 13 i was a atheist but over the years through things that have happened in life and other things i became agnostic i believe that there is a higher power at work(not necessarily a god), a good example of what i believe is in the movie knowing with Nicolas Cage at the beginning where he talks about the sun and how its at the right temperature, right size and right distance from the earth for life to evolve, also there's a quote from Stephan hawking that states if the big bang created the universe, what created the big bang.

and if you dont know what being agnostic means here is a quote from wiki
Quote
Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. More specifically, agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.

There's also a quote from Hawking that says that one has not to wonder why things are the way they are so that it is perfect for life to appear because in the situation where the conditions aren't favorable you wouldn't be here to ask yourself this question.

Or if you prefer, every other planet that doesn't harbor sentient life has nobody to ask that question.



I'm agnostic myself, not because I actually believe there might be a god but because thinking one could possibly know (in the strictest sense) is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 07:33:02 pm by Anndgrim »
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Offline Anndgrim

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Re: Religion
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 07:44:15 pm »
Hamza Tzortzis, youtube him.

I don't feel enslaved at all, i actually feel more free than i ever have been after i started practicing Islam. Anyway, i'm not so smart and philosophical so i couldn't really debate with you, but i know enough to see that its the truth. Logically and rationally progressing through the creation of the universe only leads to the belief that God exists. There are enough signs for His existence, for those who ponder anyway.

Hamza Tzortzis is probably a good a good starting point for you i guess. Also try reading the Quran. If you have thoughts of religion that keep coming back to you, then i think you will like reading it.

It doesn't... It really doesn't.

The logic that says it's an incredible coincidence that Earth is the way it is a logic fallacy. As I explained earlier, if things were different, we wouldn't be here to wonder about that.
Meanwhile somewhere in the Universe some alien specie tha only lives in high temperature water is amazed at how their planet appear to be "coincidentally" entirely covered of water and how that water is so hot because their sun is the "right size and at right distance".


This is forgetting something simple. Our world isn't adapted to us, WE ARE adapted to OUR WORLD. Were the world different, the life it would carry, if any, would be adapted to it.


As for the not being able to explain some things, it should be clear it's an invalid logic to say that because we don't know, a wizard did it.
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Offline TommyHales

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Re: Religion
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2013, 07:54:31 pm »
hey, i was never religious by the time i was 13 i was a atheist but over the years through things that have happened in life and other things i became agnostic i believe that there is a higher power at work(not necessarily a god), a good example of what i believe is in the movie knowing with Nicolas Cage at the beginning where he talks about the sun and how its at the right temperature, right size and right distance from the earth for life to evolve, also there's a quote from Stephan hawking that states if the big bang created the universe, what created the big bang.

and if you dont know what being agnostic means here is a quote from wiki
Quote
Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. More specifically, agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.

There's also a quote from Hawking that says that one has not to wonder why things are the way they are so that it is perfect for life to appear because in the situation where the conditions aren't favorable you wouldn't be here to ask yourself this question.

Or if you prefer, every other planet that doesn't harbor sentient life has nobody to ask that question.



I'm agnostic myself, not because I actually believe there might be a god but because thinking one could possibly know (in the strictest sense) is ridiculous.

exactly i couldn't of said it better myself at our current level of knowledge it is impossible to say if there is or isnt something out there that guides us. 

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Offline Jet Flash

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Re: Religion
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2013, 09:13:33 pm »
The universe could not have come from nothing, nor could it have created itself, which leaves only one rational and logical explanation.

Anyway, like i said, i'm not so smart and philosophical, and as such i'm not so fond of debates. I still recommend looking up Hamza Tzortzis, because he approaches the subject in a way that you may find interesting. Again, you should also try reading the Quran. Not like in doing any of this could bring you any harm anyway.

exactly i couldn't of said it better myself at our current level of knowledge it is impossible to say if there is or isnt something out there that guides us.

Question, how much would we need to know to know that God existed? If we ever did gain this amount of knowledge, what would happen next?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 09:27:14 pm by Jet Flash »

Offline AnimeFreak

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Re: Religion
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 02:58:51 am »
Here is my take on religion and I'll include a small anecdote of my personal experiences with it. I'm speaking of Christianity.

My dad is hyper religious. He has issues with anxiety and other things but refuses to get treated or seek therapy or even work on it--he says he'll pray to god and god will help him. It's been nearly 15 years since my parents had a divorce, since then we've all changed, he hasn't. God hasn't helped him whatsoever. As for myself, I grew up in church, i was involved in church, church was deeply ingrained into my life. I slowly started to lose faith though once someone who I was very close with left the church, after that there was a large downward spiral of events that I don't really want to write on the internet for the whole world to see.

What eventually made me lose faith was one, simple question that I pondered one night, and it happened when my friend asked me to go to masque with her and experience Islam. I thought, well no, obviously I don't believe that and I don't want to and I know it's wrong. I asked her to go to church with me and essentially got the same response. We reached an impass and I finally got it, there is NO WAY in HELL that she could have convinced me to believe anything other than christianity. It was so deep in my brain that I thought that other stuff was complete bull, and the same with her, I would never have been able to convince her to go to church because from the day she was born, she was Muslim.

I posed that question to everybody I knew at church, "How can God expect someone to convert when it would involve changing there whole life and go against everything they've been taught to believe. Can't he understand that it's impossible?"

You know what answer I got? "No, there is only one way to heaven and that is through him."

Which made me believe this, god is not loving, he is not merciful, no matter what any Christian tells you. Just read the Old Testament, "God" had "his people" slaughter enter cities and leave no one alive. Is that loving or merciful?

Then another question hit me. What if, say, you're a native american. And you're alive in 10000B.C. You've never even heard of the bible, you don't know what the hell God or Yahwey or the Torah or any of that is. Are you going to go to heaven? Well according to the bible, you are not.

I believe this quote by Marcus Aurulies sums up my feelings about religion, all religions, pretty well:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

I do believe though that there is something out there, some universal energy or something, that's kind of pulling the strings and making things work that we can't explain. I honestly don't know though, but that's okay. I don't think humans are really meant to know--we're just mean to ponder.
A lesson without pain is meaningless. That’s because you can not gain something without sacrificing something else in return. But, once you’ve over come the pain you will gain a heart that is stronger than anything else.

Offline Anndgrim

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Re: Religion
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2013, 03:31:57 am »
The universe could not have come from nothing, nor could it have created itself, which leaves only one rational and logical explanation.

Anyway, like i said, i'm not so smart and philosophical, and as such i'm not so fond of debates. I still recommend looking up Hamza Tzortzis, because he approaches the subject in a way that you may find interesting. Again, you should also try reading the Quran. Not like in doing any of this could bring you any harm anyway.

exactly i couldn't of said it better myself at our current level of knowledge it is impossible to say if there is or isnt something out there that guides us.

Question, how much would we need to know to know that God existed? If we ever did gain this amount of knowledge, what would happen next?

The big bang didn't come from nothing. The Big Bang is something small exploding into something.

But okay, what created what was their before the Big Bang.

It always fascinate me that people can't accept that space-time could exist on its own but can accept that a sentient omnipotent magical wizzard could.

So the universe HAS to have to come from something, but an omnipotent omniscient wizzard doesn't need to come from something.

Why, may you ask? Why does God not need to originate from something and can just always have been there?
Because that's exactly what religion is. An ideology where you stop asking yourself any question as soon as "God" is mentioned.


So humans wonder what was there before the world, and brought it into existence.

And SURPRISE!!

HUMANS imagine something that ressemble an HUMAN

I mean like, WOW, WHAT A COINCIDENCE.

All that of course when humans thought so very special, that the universe revolved around Earth, that it was tiny, Earth was flat, and thought that everything had always been the way it was since the dawn of time and that it would remain the same until the end of days. People who had no written record of their own history because they didn't know how to write.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 03:36:13 am by Anndgrim »
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Offline Jet Flash

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Re: Religion
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2013, 07:20:33 am »
Let's say you have a soldier with a gun in his arm, but before he could shoot it, he would need the permission of the soldier/commander above him. But before this commander could give the order, he needs to ask permission of the commander above him, and the commander above him needs to ask the commander above him. See with this we would be stuck in Infinite reverse (i think that's what it's called), it means that there would be no beginning or end, and that gun would never be fired. So it only makes sense that there is something Independent in the sense that it answers to no one, needs no permission, and is the one who gives the absolute order. Something that was never created, Ever-Living.

I posed that question to everybody I knew at church, "How can God expect someone to convert when it would involve changing there whole life and go against everything they've been taught to believe. Can't he understand that it's impossible?


How is it impossible when people have done it before? Look at all the reverts across the world, did they not change their life for Allah?
Millionaire Gives It All Up For Islam - Ishaq Mustaqim - My Path To Islam


Also tell me, what constitutes a good life? Do you base what is good and bad from society? See, society like the laws of man are ever-changing and based on his desires, fickle. What society says is good today may not have been considered good before.

So it only makes sense that a God, if He is Just, would tell us what is good and what is bad, if we are to avoid Hell and enter Paradise. What He tells us to do and not to do is what is truly good and bad, and it' not something that will change, like society. So if you were to go against what He has ordained, then how can you think that He will welcome you as if you've done nothing wrong?

Read up on what you have learnt to believe and look at its foundations, why you believe what you believe. Then look at the other side, and then compare the two. Which makes more sense? Let me tell you, Truth will always prevail over Falsehood. If you are truly sincere in seeking guidance, you will find it.

(Just in case some of you don't know, Allah is the arabic word for God, not "another" god).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 07:37:49 am by Jet Flash »

Offline Anndgrim

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Re: Religion
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2013, 08:48:47 am »
Quote
Let's say you have a soldier with a gun in his arm, but before he could shoot it, he would need the permission of the soldier/commander above him. But before this commander could give the order, he needs to ask permission of the commander above him, and the commander above him needs to ask the commander above him. See with this we would be stuck in Infinite reverse (i think that's what it's called), it means that there would be no beginning or end, and that gun would never be fired. So it only makes sense that there is something Independent in the sense that it answers to no one, needs no permission, and is the one who gives the absolute order. Something that was never created, Ever-Living.

The gun analogy would require that there is an infinity of hierarchy levels.

And that THING that was not created would by all logic be an humanoid magical wizzard... sure...

Or you could just admit that it is WAY ABOVE YOU, and that YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

Quote
Also tell me, what constitutes a good life? Do you base what is good and bad from society? See, society like the laws of man are ever-changing and based on his desires, fickle. What society says is good today may not have been considered good before.

So it only makes sense that a God, if He is Just, would tell us what is good and what is bad, if we are to avoid Hell and enter Paradise. What He tells us to do and not to do is what is truly good and bad, and it' not something that will change, like society. So if you were to go against what He has ordained, then how can you think that He will welcome you as if you've done nothing wrong?

Read up on what you have learnt to believe and look at its foundations, why you believe what you believe. Then look at the other side, and then compare the two. Which makes more sense? Let me tell you, Truth will always prevail over Falsehood. If you are truly sincere in seeking guidance, you will find it.

(Just in case some of you don't know, Allah is the arabic word for God, not "another" god).

And that would be what? The Sharia?

Anyway, if a said God puts you in a society that brainwashes you with all the wrong values and then punishes you for following said laws, that makes him unfair.

Not to mention that the laws of Religion always classify things in 2 categories, good or bad, and everything has to be good or bad. Judgement is systematically passed on every and anything.


Laws established by religion don't have for objective to serve as a morality code. They are made to shape a society into an intended shape. To make everyone following basically act the same.
Why? So that everything remains predictable, under control. It's politics.


A list of the "morality" laws included in the "Holy Scriptures" include:
Quote
"A rape victim must marry the rapist."

"For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death."

"Stubborn children were to be stoned, and the stoning was to be instigated by their parents"

"People who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God"
~Leviticus 21:17-18

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

FREAKING ROUNDED HAIRCUTS ARE FORBIDDEN



And that's just the old testament.
It's not just about how ridiculous their idea of what is good and bad is.

The punishments are also absurdly disproportionate.

Cutting arms and legs or beating people until they are almost dead or just dead are considered LIGHT PUNISHMENTS.


It is just about turning people into an easily controlled uniform mass of people who think that if they do anything that goes against what their Rabbin/Priest/Imam tells them to do they will go in Hell.

So sometimes it's just everyday crowd control, sometimes they order people to commit murder against someone who dares disagreeing with them, and sometimes it's even worse.

Like those Saudi Arabia Imams who make their disciples give them their 12 yo girls, so that the Imams can marry them, rape them and divorce them all in the same day.
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Offline Dark

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Re: Religion
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2013, 09:56:47 pm »
I believe that the only immutable laws are those that govern the natural world. Whether or not that entails a spiritual governance that we cannot perceive is not a concern of mine and I'll not burden myself with consideration for any intangible entity or its code of ethics until such a time as its existence can be proven by scientific means.

Offline _Peksi

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Re: Religion
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2013, 03:56:59 pm »
Quote
To start off, are you religious? How did you come to be if so? Why do you remain? Do you believe in God with religion, or without? Do you hate religion? Are you indifferent? Etc.
I'm Lutheran on paper but closer to Agnosticism in reality. My family belongs to the church thus I was automatically made part of it too. 'cus I haven't bothered to resign yet. I believe in the possibility that a higher power exist but I don't really care either way since it doesn't effect my everyday life anyway. Simply there's no way to know for sure, thus I mostly ignore it.
 I have nothing against religion, what I hate are the "zealots". Yea I'm mostly indifferent.


Offline diozknight

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Re: Religion
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2013, 07:04:46 pm »
Let's say you have a soldier with a gun in his arm, but before he could shoot it, he would need the permission of the soldier/commander above him. But before this commander could give the order, he needs to ask permission of the commander above him, and the commander above him needs to ask the commander above him. See with this we would be stuck in Infinite reverse (i think that's what it's called), it means that there would be no beginning or end, and that gun would never be fired. So it only makes sense that there is something Independent in the sense that it answers to no one, needs no permission, and is the one who gives the absolute order. Something that was never created, Ever-Living.

  You forgot to mention that the creator must also be outside of the universe. Because if the creator was a part of the universe then at the start of the universe that creator would exist and not exist at the same time, and that would not make any sense. Something cannot exist and not exist at the same…that is illogical


In the Quran there is a surah that  directly refers to this entire concept and it says "Allah ,  [Who is] One, Allah , the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, Nor is there to Him any equivalent."


Allah is unfathomable. There is only one of Allah. Allah is not created. There is nothing equal to Allah.


So logically one can't describe or imagine Allah as a magical humanoid wizard, There is nothing that can be compared to Allah. He is outside of this universe.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 09:13:14 am by ( ͡º ͜ʖ ͡º) »

Offline Jet Flash

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Re: Religion
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 05:22:08 am »

The gun analogy would require that there is an infinity of hierarchy levels.

And that THING that was not created would by all logic be an humanoid magical wizzard... sure...

Or you could just admit that it is WAY ABOVE YOU, and that YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

I used this example to show why i don't think it makes sense for the universe to have created itself. Is it Newtons law which says "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." ? So yes, this example would suggest that there is an infinite hierarchy of levels, if no Creator existed. Or are you saying Newtons law is wrong?

(Maybe i'm quoting the wrong law here, i don't know. Like i said, i am not smart, so maybe i'm talking about something else. For you to come to such an arrogant conclusion, you must have heard of it before yes? Causation i think it may be.)

If God is Just and he is going to judge us on our deeds and decide whether we go to Paradise or Hell, then it is only fair that he tells us what is good and what is bad, and what will land us in Paradise and what will land us in Hell. If He came as Himself or sent Angels to us to spread His Message, then there would be no test, as surely everyone would believe. That's why it makes sense that He sent Humans to be Prophets and Messengers to spread His Message, to make it a fair test.

This is what i meant by logical and rational progression.



And that would be what? The Sharia?

Simply put, yes. But I don't see how you could even begin to even comprehend or appreciate the Laws of Allah if you don't even believe in His existence. When you build a house, you don't start from the roof, you start from the foundations.

Anyway, if a said God puts you in a society that brainwashes you with all the wrong values and then punishes you for following said laws, that makes him unfair.

It's only Allah who knows what is within the hearts of men, not you. You say they are brainwashed, but what if that is actually what they believe? We all have free will, and we also choose whether we want to believe in and worship Him or not. Islam has reached all corners of the Earth, so there is no excuse of not knowing of the Message. It is upon you.

There was an Islamophobe who recently reverted. He was a leading member of some danish/dutch Islamophobe party also, so you could say he too was "brainwashed". But he decided to look into the religion himself, and saw that it made sense. He saw the Truth in it, and made the decision to rise above all the falsehood and and submit to his Lord as He has commanded us to.

Not to mention that the laws of Religion always classify things in 2 categories, good or bad, and everything has to be good or bad. Judgement is systematically passed on every and anything.

Also, I've never read the Bible but i think it's lost its authenticity with the amount of times it has been re-written by different people. This introduces the following of the desires of man, which Allah says in the Quran is something which will lead you astray. I can't say the same thing for the Quran though, as it has never been changed since the time it was first revealed. Word for word, cover to cover. So if Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) really was a Prophet of God, then the Quran would truly be the word of God.

This is why i recommend that you read it, so that you can judge for yourselves. Allah in the Quran challenges the disbelievers to create something similar, and never has it been done. When you read the Quran, you realize that this cannot be the word of a man. The Quran itself is a miracle, but also take note of the scientific miracles found within it.

So now, as it has been before, it is up to you. You can choose to procrastinate if you want, but bear in mind this warning:

"[For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected." --- [23:99-100]

 

anything